1. Jones & Shipman Grinder

Toolroom or batch production surface & profile grinding machines 524/624 Easy. In Manual Mode the Easy operates as a simple hand controlled machine, with. Jones & Shipman model 1400 surface grinder manual.Approximately 25 pages fully illustrated drawings, foundation plan, installation, table traverse, rise and fall head, cross feed, lifting and levelling, hydraulic circuit, wheel spindle, coolant supply, etc. JONES AND SHIPMAN UNIVERSAL GRINDERS VICE ENGINEERS TOOLING SURFACE GRINDER. EUR 389.10; + EUR 72.56 postage.

I want to buy a smallish OD grinder for hobby/tinkering/learning purposes in central Europe (shop location Germany). I know very little about grinding and have never operated an OD grinder. What better way to learn then by doing? I am willing to spend up to 5 KEuros for something of sufficient quality and capability. Knowing next to nothing about the subject, I am worried that I buy something that later-on turns out to be insufficient in quality, condition, or capability. Of course I want it to be able to do everything (within reason) and be very well equipped.

Prices for such grinders seem to be all over the place. In Germany obviously Myfords are rare. Strangely I have seen a few Jones Shipman for sale here. Notably a Jones Shipman 1310, which appears of decent size, while not too big. I'd like an old nice german Fortuna, but old and nice do not seem to go together there, and I've never seen newer Fortunas. I'd love the swiss stuff, maybe a Studer S20? But I am afraid that will be very expensive.

My question now is: What should I look for? What capabilities and features should I look for? What has to be powered, swivelable, accessoried? Next week I will get a chance to check out a Jones Shipman 1310 as a first data point.

Any opinions appreciated. A 'manual OD/ID' is by definition a Universal. Work head swivels, wheel slide swivels and is able to feed along that angled axis. Wheel mount can often swivel on top of wheel slide to enable setting wheel at any angle.

Table swivels (some) to grind tapers/get taper out. It won't conform to your description unless it has a drop down ID spindle for internal grinding. These generally have interchangeable quills small/larger and long/shorter To make it more useful, it should have chuck that fits workhead spindle, steady rest, and if any length at all, some form of universal back rests which support long slim work. It will need a selection of first rate condition carbide tipped dead centers. Ideally it would have a selection of useable 'rocks'. Buying these new is not cheap. If hydraulic and most modern ones are, this system needs to be in first class condition.

Typically the wheelhead on a Jones and Shipman cylindrical grinder only has a single swivel. They make them with a double swivel, but they aren't very common. I still consider the Jones and Shipman a Universal, but few can have the wheel mounted on the right side. I wouldn't hesitate to get a Jones and Shipman, but don't get a used up one.

My first one which is i think is a 1302 which is a 10 by 27 with swing around ID, was in great shape. I longed for a longer travel and recently bought a 14 by 40 J and S. Buying a grinder sight unseen, I'd have to say is a risk. I have another 1991 CNC Jones and Shipman, which if I get it figured out, should be pretty nice. Studers seem to sell for more money than a comparable Jones and Shipman. Probably not many used American Grinders over ther. A Landis 1R is certainly a nice smaller grinder, as well as the some Cincinattis and Brown and Sharpes.

The trick is to find one that's been taken care of. On the Jones and Shipman, probably the easiest way to tell if it's been used a lot, or carelessly, is look at the pulleys on the workhead. They are designed to be removed by unscrewing a large knurled nut.

Check the fit of the pulleys over the splines. They should fit snugly, without slop. Both the workhead and wheel head have the spindles riding on bronze bushings that are adjustable. Try to get a grinder with as many accesories as possible. They're hard to come by if you don't get them with the grinder.

Accesories as John stated like steady's and follower rests. Another thing to look at is the bottom of the tailstock. Lazy operators, don't clean their tables before moving the tailstock, and the bottom can actually get significantly worn. Remove the tailstock and physically examine the bottom of it. The chucks on Jones and Shipman grinders use a weird adapter. It's nice to get a variety of chucks when you get the grinder, or you'll have to make adapters.

Typically I grind on centers, but the occasional use of a magnetic chuck or a three or four jaw, certainly makes some jobs easier. An option on the grinder is an automatic plunge feed. Nice to have, but not the end of the world if your grinder doesn't have it. Try and get a grinder with the original coolant tank. Jones and Shipman coolant tanks are a well designed unit, that has quite a few baffles to rap sediment.

Word to the wise on a Jones and Shipman- they use WHITWORTH bolts- not metric, not American. I have a set of whitworth wrenches I use with mine. Interesting and good advise so far! Though some of it over my head. I am out of town now for the next 10 days, but will post pictures of the J&S machine I am looking at for practise. I sure get the completeness aspect of a machine. I was rather shocked how expensive basic accessories like additional wheel hubs are, not to mention simple balancing arbors.

It does appear I need to get serious education before I buy a machine, which is not a problem since I have no rush. You'll hear more from me. I have a J&S 1300, which is OK, but not a top-machine.It has a problem with the spindle-nose, when I use a chuck run-out a part is not easy.Using the centers no problem. Very hard to set the table correct to make a part cilindrical, the table is bending all the time. Spindle for ID is mounted on the back of the grinderhead, you have to rotate the grinderhead a 180 degrees. I would love to have a Kellenberger, but they are expensive.Also Studer is expensive but the older types are affordable and very good.Considering the fact I don't use it that much I still have the J&S.

It has always a reason why some machines are cheap and other expensive. Martin, can you define the typical job you envision? (long/slender, long/large OD, short stubby, etc, etc?) Are you thinking of producing a product? Or will it be experimental work & one or two at a time? I would love to have a smallish universal, especially with good backstop/follower rests. But over the past 3 or 4 years, I actually have been offered 3 small - medium sized cylindricals for free, including one i ran moonlighting in another shop years ago. Faced with the opportunity, i could not practically devote the space to one.

Of course the fact that none of the machines was pristine was a factor, but all were decent, usable. I manage to do a fair amount of small - medium work on my Cincinnati #2 tool & cutter grinder, including low speed ball bearing races, spindles, etc. The machine has OD & ID spindles, steady rest, which as others mentioned is essential to ID work, etc. Here in the US, a tilt head Cincy #2 with some tooling can be had for under $1,000, sometimes even with auto table feeds.

The older versions seldom make it to $500. (Mine cost $50 with universal work head, some micrometer tool rests, & misc. I spent about another $500 for new ID HS spindle & selection of interchangeable spindles with follow & steady rests, several TS centers, long reamer center set, etc, etc. Off ebay over the years). Of course the nuisance is mist coolant. If you need a cylindrical grinder & know what you need, don't hesitate to buy a good one.

If you merely want capability to experiment and do small parts; at least in the US a heavy T & C is not a bad way to get started for very little money. Between dead centers, it can be as accurate. (Use it, figure out what you really need, then move the T & C off to a corner for tool work or junk it, and step up to a new machine with your newly informed awareness.) smt. I bought one of these from Reliable Tool on ebay about 5 years ago: This is the Swiss made Tripet MUR100 which is really an ID grinder but mine has the OD grinding attachment as shown in the photo. Photo is a web photo, not my machine, but mine is identical. It seems like a super nice small grinder, although I have not used it much. Of interest to me at least was the fact that the workhead is a DC drive driven by a motor generator set mounted in the base.

Very similar but smaller to the early Monarch EE drive. The ID spindle is pneumatic, the OD spindle is belt driven from an AC motor. I suppose these machines might be more common in Europe, I have not seen another for sale in the US. I would be interested to hear how Stephen Thomas is grinding the ID of a low speed ball bearing race. How do you grind a particular radius on the ID? Say you plan to run 1/4 inch balls, do you grind with a 1/4 inch ball stone? Seems like that wouldn't hold tolerance or even shape for long.

Quote: 'I would be interested to hear how Stephen Thomas is grinding the ID of a low speed ball bearing race. How do you grind a particular radius on the ID? Say you plan to run 1/4 inch balls, do you grind with a 1/4 inch ball stone?

Seems like that wouldn't hold tolerance or even shape for long.' Alan, I rough the parts on a lathe before hardening, and leave a generous grinding margin. To clarify one point, though, I have not yet had to grind the ID of an outer race. Only the OD's of inner races. Though I have done the face troughs on thrust bearings (both halves) for large, obsolete, conical seat ball thrust bearings out of my 20' rotab on a Hardinge second op, with a die grinder in the toolpost.

When acquired, they were rusted almost solid and deeply pitted from coolant. Doing them on the T & C would be easier but at the time I did not have an ID spindle. This part is for an obsolete bearing for the rolling table on a Rockwell/SCMI rolling table 16' (blade) tablesaw.

The saw is actually an Italian import from the mid 70's. I got it from Surplus John's 'clearing out the warehouse' auction a few years ago.

Some of the parts includign empty races from the saw were fastened to it with bailing string. SCMI told me no luck here or in Italy at any price for the part, so I used what was left to make the missing inner race. If necessary, making the outer race would not have been a big problem. Again, rough out as much as possible before HT. Here is the roughed, HT'd part. It remains attached to a stub for holding in a collet by a very thin rim of metal that will be cut off after it is finished.

One old inner race is on the left for comparison. Here is the set up to grind the ID (straight bore) of the inner race. This is done first, so a premade plug mandrel can be inserted to compare an existing race directly to the new one as it is ground. Perhaps not obvious in the photo, the grinding bob is dressed to a thin rim (very slight cone shape with the large OD outermost), and the wheel head is at a slight angle to the travel, so only a thin peripheral area on the end of the bob will do the cutting.

Dressing the wheel for the bearing race. I don't remember my calculations, suffice to say you can make your own choice depending on application. Balls need to have line contact, however, so the radius will be bigger than the ball radius. I think this is the limit for pictures in one post. To be continued. Grinding the race. Basically, I merely ground until the new race on left, visually matched an old race on the right.

Bearing is stuck on with a blob of grease for the photo. Apparent distortion at bottom of races is due to coolant drip & reflection. Parting off the finished part on a surface grinder, which was then surface ground flat on the parted face.

Ready to assemble. New on left, old on right. The originals failed because they were crimped on a mild steel eccentric axle. The table works a bit in use, and the crimps become loose until the bearing comes apart and pieces get lost. I modified the set up to take a bolt.

By threading the axle the whole way through, the bolt is opposed by a set screw from the opposite end to set the running fit. To be continued. Assembling the parts. This is a fairly large bearing, 8mm balls, cell phone for dating era, & size comparison Here's the application.

Heavy CI rolling table with hardened (chilled) Vee-way groove to match OD of rollers. Now are you sorry you asked? BTW, to work an inner race the same dressing procedure would be used, and one would merely choose the largest grinding disc size possible to get away with, that would fit inside. It might take a bit more dressing (several passes) depending how small the wheel had to be in relation to the race. Depending what wheels you had on hand, a wide wheel might need to be dressed thinners for use.

But remember, again, in a ball race there only needs be line contact. (more will skid the balls and ruin things) so with an adjustable cone inner race, things aren't terribly critical.

Making a perfect fit single inner and outer race radial set would be a bit more interesting. A honing or lapping operation might be something to consider in that case for home shop. However, practically, facing that problem, I would more likely grind out the inner bore of the existing outer race, and press in a stock bearing.

Jones & Shipman Grinder

Or make a new outer race bored for that solution. If your eyes have not glazed over long ago, here is a link to a post on OD grinding on the Cincy that I wrote on making a (wood) shaper spindle with MT#5 shank, out of 4140 prehard.

Scroll down to near the end of the first page for the grinding set ups. I did not intend to hijack this thread, so I'll go ahead and apologize for that but now that the damage is done: Thanks SMT for all the photos and text. I recall you have posted a lot of that before, it was interesting to read it again.

'I have not yet had to grind the ID of an outer race. Only the OD's of inner races' I assume you are turning the ID of the outer race with what amounts to a form tool, a round carbide insert or another tool with the correct radius ground on it. If its acceptable for the outer race, why isn't it acceptable for the inner race?

I don't see a reason to grind one and turn the other. 'in a ball race there only needs be line contact' Is that by intent or an inevitable result? I wonder if you really mean point contact. A ball sitting in a perfectly fitting race can only contact along a line. Very nice work by the way.

Did you heat treat the 4140PH after turning or leave it in the PH condition? Sounds like you heat treated it. Did you have it cased or hardened through? I guess the reason to use PH was surface finish of the turned part?

No problem on the highjack! Its good and I want to learn stuff. (side note: I am only at this computer still because my flight yesterday returned to the gate with technical difficulties, which made me miss my connection to Europe, which did not prevent Delta from trying to send my luggage ahead without me and without connection in Atlanta. So I spend 5 hours at the airport mostly trying to get my luggage back.

I'll to fly today) smt, I dont really know what exactly I will 'need' such grinder for. This is the privilege of the hobbyist. In general small to medium size repair work and support of medium size mold making (sheet metal forming molds).

I thought about what you suggested, to buy a beater just for learning, but I have never been offered one for free. Also I find myself only enjoying the 'work' if I am in love with the machine. It has to be an esthetically pleasing object in my shop that I want to play with. It has to be better then I am (thats easy).

If I know it is not able to do much good anyway (e.g. Worn, incomplete.) I find myself not wanting to play with it. If it were a car, I am looking for something old but fine, with no major rust holes, but surface rust OK, original unmolested engine, beat up interior, but original, and with no idiot shade-tree mechanics have practiced on it and no 16 year olds having left their mark. Wow, that Tripet looks nice. Why are dead centers being used in grinding?

Are live centers too inaccurate/less stiff? Quote: 'I assume you are turning the ID of the outer race with what amounts to a form tool, a round carbide insert or another tool with the correct radius ground on it.

If its acceptable for the outer race, why isn't it acceptable for the inner race? I don't see a reason to grind one and turn the other.' Alan, to further clarify, I have not had (nor claimed) to have to grind an outer race at all.

(but I would not hesitate to take it on, if necessary) The subject bearing outer races for the post above had been rescued (presumably when they failed) & all but one inner cone tied to a rail on the machine with bailing twine. So only one inner race, for this project (I have done others, generally for bicycles) was necessary The inner race was machined with a shop ground HSS tool, before hardening. I do have a ball turning attachment that would serve as well, but is slower to set up than quick grinding a form bit while comparing it to an old race for for shape. The face races on the thrust bearings (mentioned but not shown) were ground with multiple passes & lots of dressing, since a form tool would have been practically useless in the hardened steel. Quote: 'in a ball race there only needs be line contact' Is that by intent or an inevitable result? I wonder if you really mean point contact.

A ball sitting in a perfectly fitting race can only contact along a line.' You are absolutely correct, I was thinking 'line around the race, not area' However point contact with ball at rest is a better description. Thanks for picking that up. Quote: 'Did you heat treat the 4140PH after turning or leave it in the PH condition? Sounds like you heat treated it.

Did you have it cased or hardened through? I guess the reason to use PH was surface finish of the turned part?' Part was left in the PH condition. 4140PH used due to the high stress application; PH for most hardness with practicality of not having to do a heat treat step. As mentioned in the post, someone with a heavier less worn lathe could have finished it on the lathe. I was trying to split.001's on the straight spindle and get a good surface finish over a fair length on both the spindle & taper.

My SB 10K won't do that all together at once. Some day i will either finish a Hardinge T-10, or rescrape the SB. For now it was faster and higher confidence to finish the part by grinding. As an aside to your further question, I do like the finish of turning 4140PH and more recently made a set of actuating screws out of it for long life, but also because it is so nice to turn & thread, even with HSS (threading) at relatively slow SFM. Martin, i understand your point. I almost never get around to painting machines. But most of the grinders here have been tuned to work very well despite the ugly surface condition.

For instance, the chipped & rusty (exterior) B & S #2 surface grinder shown parting off the bearing, I completely re-scraped maybe 6 -8 years ago, and it is a very accurate grinder within the limits of it's design. (though it will soon need spindle bearings. Sigh.) However, i don't have time to make most of the machine tools pretty.

They only have to work very well and be accurate. (good engine & drive train but rusted out body. ) In my defense, instead of painting machines, I spend that time making beautiful machine parts for woodworking restorations, or to make tools and machines for other applications for other beautiful objects. (If I do say so myself, only in self defense, of course ) BTW, besides the planes which are my work, the flooring sample is from the Office of the Treasurer of the USA. Maybe 10 years ago, it is one I replicated for the Treasury when the original was inadvertantly destroyed (thrown out) during a systems & IT modernization upgrade That is my primary work, restoration woodwork. Sorrry Martin, you made me a little defensive since all the machines in my metal shop are on the ugly side! OK, I did not set out to hi-jack this thread, either.

The photo essays on using a Tool & Cutter grinder were done in the past for a woodworking machinery site, to show that it is possible with inexpensive machines and a little thought, to solve problems of parts that are no longer available; and that with thought, the task is not really that difficult. I do not claim to have the theory of ball bearings down either. But if you know what theory you want to apply, there are many satisfactory ways to accomplish it. Martin, perhaps large old T & C grinders are not common in Europe.

They are in the USA because up until about 15 years ago, every manufacturing concern and tool shop of any size had to have at least one, usually many of them to keep manufacturing going. Then insert tooling came along and they were all put out to pasture. There are even beautiful pristine ones out there with power travel on the tables and many bells and whistles.

But they can hardly be given away because who sharpens tools anymore. But they are very versatile machines for sharpening, tool making, and OD & ID grinding if a shop can have only one. Since they are so inexpensive (here), and so versatile, if a person does not know what he really wants an OD grinder for, perhaps some examples will inspire his thinking. One last observation: Another type of reknowned, gorgeous and capable grinders is made by Royal Oak nearby in Seneca Falls, NY. Since Hardinge, right here in town, has owned Tripet, Tshudin, Hauer, and Kellenberger for the past 10 - 15 years, we seem to have a corner on the world grinder market locally! Quote: 'Why are dead centers being used in grinding?

Are live centers too inaccurate/less stiff?' Always remember to set the lock on the spring loaded center (tailstock center) the same each time, though. Work turning about it's own center is going to be about as close to repeatable as possible. The better OD grinders have dead centers at both ends.

(the headstock center can be powered, or not, in some). The dog driver (on the headstock) rotates around the dead center, and does not influence the center. The headstock center can be powered, or not, in some The B&S I linked to photos of above is built that way - has a selectable lock on the back that controls whether spindle in workhead revolves or not.

When grinding between dead centers with spindle locked, the device screwed on the spindle nose to drive the dog has its own bearings, and does not mind if spindle is locked. The drum pulley of this device is driven by the same enclosed thin flat belt that drives spindle, chuck (or other spindle tooling, such as face plate or mag chuck) and all when you want the spindle turning. SMT, You said 'I have done others, generally for bicycles' I'm working on some early bicycles and motorcycles. 1910 Pierce at the moment and am making front wheel hub bearing races. Most of these projects end up as display items and don't see enough miles for it to matter what you make the races out of but still I like to do it as the original guys did. What sort of materials and hardness do you think they achieved on this early stuff? Some of the original stuff I've got is chipped or cracked so I know its brittle, don't really know about hardness.

4140PH is surely good enough and thats probably what I'll mostly use, I did just buy some A2 though to try that out and see what its like. Should get a lot harder than 4140. I tried hardening some 4140A (annealed) on my own and it did harden up, but not like tool steel or bearing race hard.

Not enough carbon. Should I buy some 52100 and try that? Why not just use A2 and simplify the quench mess. Too many choices.